Dogen
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Japanese Phonetics Episode 16 (outdated link)
🕑 Added 2017-04-05 15:38:12 +0000 UTCThis post has been replaced by the remade lesson 16, which can be found here:
Japanese Phonetics 16 (Pitch-accent in the negative forms of i-adjectives)
Note: I recently completely remade lesson 12, and in said lesson I included the 'easier to remember' く form of 3 mora い adjectives, which is uMAku. That said, Umaku is also correct, and what I learned at university, which is why I used Umaku in this lesson. I'm currently working on remaking this lesson right now to reflect both pronunciations, as both are accetablple.
In other words, when it comes to the negative form of three mora nakadaka i-adjectives, both Umaku NAi, as explainded in this lesson, and uMAku NAi, are acceptable and correct. If anyone has any questions about this please feel free to leave a comment below! Thank you!
Bibliography
The sixteenth episode of Japanese Phonetics is LIVE! In this episode I talk about the pitch-accent patterns for the negative form of i-adjectives, addressing one important rule and the various conjugations it covers. I had originally intended on including the negative form of na-adjectives in this lesson as well, but found some conflicting information in academic literature with regards to the way 「じゃ」attaches to heiban nouns and na-adjectives after recording the initial video. I consider this to be a critical pattern in modern Japanese, so I contacted my former professor of phonetics at Keio University in order to get an up-to-date, professional opinion on the matter. I expect to hear back within the next few days, and will do my best to post a video covering the subject before leaving for my business trip to Jakarta next week.
I've taken tomorrow morning and Friday off of work to answer questions and comments that have yet to be unanswered. Sorry to keep everyone waiting—everything will be answered before I get in bed on Friday.
If you have any questions or concerns with regards to today's lesson don't hesitate to leave a comment below! As always, thank you very much for the continued support. Hope you enjoy the lesson!
Best from Beppu,
Dogen
Comments
PaintedVibes
Yeah this lost me too...
Ryan Ratjani
Is うまい 3 mora 中高? Why the うまく form in episode 12 is not treated like あつく in this episode? For another example, how about たかい and さむい?
Dogen
Hi Uly, i indeed would pronounce the word as maHOOGAkkoo, and this site (http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/eng/phrasing/index) indicates that this is indeed the correct pronunciation. That said, there is a small chance that the word is considered a proper noun that has it's own unique pronunciation which may contradict rules. Again though, maHOOGAkkoo definitely feels more natural to me. Please note that I may not be able to address individual word questions in the future, due to my time constrains. Hope this helps!
Uly ___
Hi Dogen! Ok, so I know it's just my second week studying Japanese, but I tuned into a live video "class" put on by an American who claims to know advanced Japanese and something struck me. He was reading from the first chapter of some Harry Potter book and going over vocabulary first. I admit that most of it went over my head, but I thought it couldn't hurt. Someone on a language-learning site said that in the initial stages, "input is input" and you should listen to as much as you can even if you don't understand everything. At any rate, one of the vocabulary items was "magic school," which he pronounced maHOo-gakkoo. After listening to your lessons, that just didn't sound right. According to your previous lesson, even though gakoo is heiban, in this combination it would make more sense to make the whole compound nakadaka and say maHOOGAkkoo with the downstep on GA. Or am I crazy? He claims Japanese say it his way, but I don't believe him. He didn't sound too sure.
Dogen
Hi Uly, here the なる is an independent verb that also exists as a unique grammar point that combines with い adjectives. なる means 'become' so when it attaches to an い adjective it means "become 'meaning of the い adjective'". For example 'あつくなる' means 'become hot'. Hope that this helps! Cheers!
Uly ___
Sorry to echo Crysenley's question. This is now my second week of Japanese and I came across "naru" in a lesson in which it means AFFIRMATIVE become. Just to clarify, is the "naru" you indicated in this lesson an independent verb that means become, or is it a negative particle/ending derived fom "nai" that I haven't come across yet in my studies?
Dogen
Hi Jokin! I do indeed cover ありません later in one of the verb lessons. Cheers!
Jokin Pedreño Alcolea
Hi Dogen! Thanks for the video. Are you covering the negative formal form ありません later? maybe with verbs or idk 笑
Dogen
Hi Chris! I believe this is correct, though I've never encountered any literature that states this explicitly. Cheers!
Newchurch
Does ない／無い attaching high have something to do with it being its own auxiliary verb rather than a true conjugation?
Dogen
Hi! Yes, it's just to show that the same rule applies. I decided to include it as it's usually something that comes up when talking about the く conjugations of い adjectives ^^ Thank you very much!
Crysenley
I've been writing notes on each lesson to reference later, but quick question: Why is the verb なる included in this episode about negatives? Is it just to show the same rule applies? Also, Happy Belated Father's Day!
Dogen
Hi Sascha, both the guidelines I introduce in this video and the rules listed on these sites are correct. This is one of the less common instances in which there are multiple acceptable pitch-accent patterns. I chose to only introduce the 'attach [high-to-low ない] to the く form' guideline to keep things simple, and because in my experience this pattern seems to be more prevalent in everyday speech. Incidentally OJAD is a great resource, but I usually use either the 新明解日本語アクセント辞典 or the NHK発音アクセント辞典 (among a couple other pitch-accent resources, such as 日本語アクセント入門) when researching, as OJAD seems to sometimes arbitrarily switch between either the various acceptable versions of rules, and/or older and newer rules. Hope this helps!
Sascha Baer
Hi dogen, a question/concern: Both OJAD (<a href="http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/search/index/word:%E3%82%88%E3%81%8F%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84)" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/search/index/word:%E3%82%88%E3%81%8F%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84)</a> and this other source someone I know dug up (<a href="http://accent.u-biq.org/keiyoushi.html)" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://accent.u-biq.org/keiyoushi.html)</a> show a simple atamadaka pattern for よくない, in direct contradiction with the information in this video. What gives?
Dogen
Awesome, thanks for the share Thom!
Thom
Heres a set of flash cards I made for I-Adjectives based on these videos. <a href="https://quizlet.com/216918460/12-13-16-adjectives-flash-cards/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://quizlet.com/216918460/12-13-16-adjectives-flash-cards/</a>
Dogen
Thank you ^^ Verbs come first so we're still a while out, but it will come eventually! ^^
Daniel Wahl
Great video. And I for one am looking forward to the video on sentence-level pitch accent patterns!
Dogen
I will be! Although it will most likely be a few weeks before I'm able to record. Please message me if there's anything you'd like to know in advance. I know most of the details already!
Matt
Nice video as usual. Are you still going to release that video "addressing the future of Japanese Phonetics (end goals, expected number of lessons, community implementation, all-in-one packaging, etc." you mentioned last week?
