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Episode 14: Pitch-accent patterns for na-adjectives

🕑 Added 2017-03-09 16:16:38 +0000 UTC

Comments

Trainfan1055

I've been thinking 大変 was taIHEn all this time because someone pronounced it that way in an anime I watched.

Dogen

Hi, Silvio. JP here, Dōgen's business partner. I'm helping manage the messages here on Patreon. There is more information on な-adjectives in lessons 15 and 17. I think lesson 17 mentions that な-adjectives act much like nouns and don't have the more complicated conjugations that い-adjectives and verbs do. I hope this helps!

Silvio Alabiso

Good morning Dogen, I have a brief question: what about the pattern for the conjugated NA adjectives? you explained it for the other adjective branch but not for this one. thank you for your time!

Dogen

Hi David! I haven't seen either of these so it's hard to say with certainty what's going on—it could be the subtle drop in pitch I talk about in lesson 6.3, or it could be the voice actors doing something with the word to make it sound a certain way in order to communicate a particular nuance. I'm unaware of a shift to a newer pronunciation, though I haven't explored this topic in detail recently. Apologies for not being able to help with this more!

Dogen

Hi Gardner! It's hard to say with certainty, but I believe what you're hearing is the pitch of the word continuing to fall after the downstep has occurred (the subtle drop in pitch that I talk about in less 6.3). I would not encourage you to intentionally pronounce them with the downstep occurring on the third mora, as I think this would have more of a net-negative effect than a net positive effect.

David Davidson

賑やか is read as niGIYAkana twice in Kill La Kill episode 7 00:50 and 1:10 鮮やか is read as aZAYAkana in Kono Suba episode 3 20:25 I wonder if this is something that has been changing to be different from what the dictionary says, (the accent moving 2 -> 3).

Aki Nakirium

Hi Dogen, after watching this video, I found that those 3-mora adjectives with か at the end are pronounced as if the downstep occurs on the third mora. But if I listen to them carefully, I can still notice a subtle downstep on the second mora. I think this phenomenon is discussed in one of your previous videos. But what if I intentionally pronounce them with the downstep occuring on the third mora, would Japanese ppl able to spot any difference?

Dogen

Hi Casey! Yes, seems like it’s another good way to remember them! Thank you so much for the insight! Now that you know the rule, you are all set! Keep practicing the pronunciation until you say the words correctly in a conversation without thinking about the rule! That’ll make your speech really natural! Good luck with your studying! (^^) -Kimi

Casey

Hey Dogen, after watching part 2 of this video, it seems that a simple way to sum up 3- and 4-mora な-adjectives ending with か would be that the accent/downstep occurs two mora before the か. Would you agree that this could be another way to remember these?

Dogen

Hi Kaba! I wager what you’re hearing is what I call the ‘gradual drop in pitch’, and I talk about it in detail in this lesson: https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-35173952 Hope that this provides some additional context!

カババカ

It's interesting that with not all, but a lot of the 平板 "な" adjectives (in this video) the "な" although technically supposed to be up, at pretty much the same pitch as the word itself, actually drops quite significantly in pitch, when read by the native speaker.

Dogen

Hi Luke! I unfortunately do not know the answer to this question, but I would wager that it has to do with what you've guessed—that perhaps there was a phonetic shift or that in one region the exceptions were pronounced with a dialect and that later became mainstream. Again, I'm not sure, but that does feel very plausible to me. Sorry for not being able to help with this more! Cheers.

Luke Winikates

Hi Dogen - it seems like a big dividing line for pitch rules comes from whether they're chinese-origin words or not. I'm watching the series slowly for the first time, but I'm thinking about the 4-mora-2-kanji rule that you've mentioned for な adjectives and for nouns. With the exceptions that you've called out (挨拶、親切など), do you know if those were historically 平板 but changed at some point, maybe because they're so commonly used? Did they change because of some kind of phonetic process, maybe to make them easier to pronounce? Or maybe they because so familiar that started to be treated like 和語 even though they are 漢語.

Dogen

Hi Itay! Actually, yes it does seem to be, thought it seems that a 中高 pronunciation is also acceptable for this word! Thanks for pointing this out—I'll add a note to the video description!

Itay Perl

Hi Dogen, is 細かな an exception to the 3-mora 〜か rule? It seems to be pronounced as 尾高 on Forvo (e.g. 細かに切る https://forvo.com/word/%E7%B4%B0%E3%81%8B%E3%81%AB%E5%88%87%E3%82%8B/#ja). Thanks!

Dogen

Hi Kusterdu, だった will attach high then drop to 平板 nouns and 平板 na-adjectives, and it will attach low and stay low to nouns and na-adjectives that already have exhibited a downstep.

kusterdu

What is the pitch accent pattern for だった when it attaches to a noun or na-adjective? Is it similar to the rules governing だろう, でしょう, etc.? Sorry if you have covered this topic in another video and I missed it.

Dogen

Sorry Liam for not being more clear about this—throughout this series I’ve come to use downstep (the drop in pitch) and accent (the last high pitch) interchangeably, which is my mistake. I plan on creating a lesson in the relatively near future talking about this, as well as exactly what a downstep is, in detail. In the example you’ve mentioned, the second mora is the accent, and the downstep technically occurs between this and the third mora. Again my mistake, and I hope that this clear things up!

Liam Cronin

Sorry but around 6:40, Doesn't the downstep occur on the third mora not the second？If the second is low wouldn't that make it atamadaka?

Dogen

Hi Justin! That seems to be correct; I was taught "Chinese origin nouns that are written with two kanji and contain four mora." I wasn't told anything about okurigana specifically, but I've never personally considered nouns that contain okurigana as part of this group, and to me words that contain okurigana don't quite 'feel' right in this group, perhaps due to the Chinese origin element of the rule. Hope that this helps!

Justin

I Dogen. I noticed that despite 大好き having 4 mora and 2 kanji it wasn't included in your exceptions to the first rule, but was separated fully into the 頭高 category. Is there a reason for this? Does the rule not apply if the word includes okurigana?

Dogen

Hi Daniel! Yes it can, and I cover this in the sentence-level pitch accent subseries which is about ten episodes away from this one. Cheers!

Daniel Pagliaro

Hey Dogen, quick question about 元気. Although it's 頭高、can the pitch go up at the end if you're asking it as a question? For example, I feel like if I see a friend for the first time in a while and they greet me with "元気” it sounds like the pitch is moving up. Any advice on this?

Dogen

Hi Jordan :) thanks for the comment. Really glad to hear that you've made some major progress 😎 I'd say we are about 5-6 videos out from the end of version 1 of the curriculum. After that I will be rerecording a higher quality version that everyone who has contributed will be able to access :) After this is done I will be doing a series on pronunciation (rather than intonation). Hope this answers your question ^^ just now

Jordan Oxborough

Some useful groupings that definitely make sense when you see / hear them. I'm finding your course extremely useful and the other day received a comment when practising a speech — that my pronunciation, and ability to adapt to the correct pronunciation when being corrected, had improved — and definitely attribute that to the realisations that have come about from these videos. I was wondering what the overall plan for future videos would be, and how much left we have to go. Have you shared the basic curriculum for the rest of the course?